{"id":1064,"date":"2025-07-29T17:00:00","date_gmt":"2025-07-29T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/?p=1064"},"modified":"2025-07-30T17:47:47","modified_gmt":"2025-07-30T17:47:47","slug":"gtm-156-revenue-marketing-unpacked-gtm-lessons-ai-and-whats-really-broken-in-attribution-john-fernandez","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/2025\/07\/29\/gtm-156-revenue-marketing-unpacked-gtm-lessons-ai-and-whats-really-broken-in-attribution-john-fernandez\/","title":{"rendered":"GTM 156: Revenue Marketing Unpacked: GTM Lessons, AI, and What\u2019s Really Broken in Attribution | John Fernandez"},"content":{"rendered":"<div style=\"height:25px\" aria-hidden=\"true\" class=\"wp-block-spacer\"><\/div>\n<p>The GTM Podcast is available on any major directory, including:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/in\/podcast\/the-gtm-podcast\/id1369291464\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Apple Podcasts<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/2SA1dgQ2Yc5t4V5GcBLnD2?si=b9dcb3e53b2d4ad2&amp;nd=1\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Spotify<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLGXnz4Tyz3-SfJ5DPByHtUOQOFB3yJ6zZ&amp;si=Yj3qgzFty48-h9uI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">YouTube<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/johnfernandez\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">John Fernandez<\/a> is SVP at Datasite, with a track record as GTM leader at Glia, ContentWise, and Diligent, having scaled teams through IPOs, acquisitions, and $1.4B in equity events. At Glia, John pioneered revenue marketing\u2019s impact, driving 71% of pipeline and 60% of new business revenue from marketing. Connect with him for real-world GTM lessons, scaling playbooks, and unique frameworks for aligning marketing with revenue.<\/p>\n<h2>Discussed in this Episode:<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li>How to architect a B2B marketing org that is truly accountable for pipeline and revenue, not just \u201cinfluence\u201d<\/li>\n<li>Aligning product, content, and campaign teams to ONE goal: pipeline creation (culture, incentives, and operations)<\/li>\n<li>The \u201cValue Chain\u201d framework for mapping marketing\u2019s full-stack impact across the GTM engine<\/li>\n<li>John\u2019s \u201c4 Whats\u201d Framework for operationalizing measurement: what\u2019s working, what\u2019s not, what\u2019s new, what\u2019s next<\/li>\n<li>What\u2019s broken about attribution today and why multi-touch measurement is often a red herring<\/li>\n<li>The shift from SEO to GEO: How generative AI is re-writing digital discoverability and B2B content strategy<\/li>\n<li>AI in marketing without losing authenticity: human-in-the-loop, voice, and trust factors you need to watch<\/li>\n<li>Why more Martech isn\u2019t the answer (and the tech stack crisis facing GTM teams)<\/li>\n<li>Deep problem understanding as a GTM superpower (what chess can teach SaaS leaders about winning)<\/li>\n<li>Key moves for founders and GTM leaders facing today\u2019s attention and signal problem<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Highlights:<\/h2>\n<p><strong>0:00<\/strong> \u2013 Why \u201cbrand\u201d only gets you a fraction of a second \u2014 pipeline accountability is the real differentiator<br \/><strong>1:10<\/strong> \u2013 Introducing John Fernandez: leading GTM, IPOs, and billion-dollar revenue journeys<br \/><strong>2:20<\/strong> \u2013 \u201cValue Chain\u201d Framework: Connecting product marketing, content, campaigns, and brand to revenue<br \/><strong>4:00<\/strong> \u2013 Operationalizing revenue focus: how to embed pipeline creation in marketing culture<br \/><strong>6:50<\/strong> \u2013 Generalists vs. Specialists: why you must know what good looks like, even if you can\u2019t do it all<br \/><strong>8:45<\/strong> \u2013 Data and measurement: how to turn attribution data into real change (and why numbers build trust)<br \/><strong>10:30<\/strong> \u2013 The \u201c4 Whats\u201d: John\u2019s cheat code for quarterly measurement and executive\/board reporting<br \/><strong>13:00<\/strong> \u2013 Attribution traps: multi-touch is effort, not efficacy \u2014 what most marketers miss about the buyer journey<br \/><strong>16:30<\/strong> \u2013 Seeing the full buyer journey: why marketers must think like mini-CROs<br \/><strong>19:40<\/strong> \u2013 Sales cycles in 2025: stakeholder depth, ABM, and mapping the committee<br \/><strong>23:30<\/strong> \u2013 Scaling from Seed to growth: how product-market fit made Glia\u2019s revenue marketing model possible<br \/><strong>27:15<\/strong> \u2013 The realistic limits of marketing-originated pipeline (and why org context matters)<br \/><strong>29:00<\/strong> \u2013 GTM targeting: creating a full-funnel flywheel with content, outbound, partner, and ecosystem tactics<br \/><strong>33:00<\/strong> \u2013 Career inflection points: when to get off the rocket ship, and how to empower new GTM leaders<br \/><strong>36:15<\/strong> \u2013 AI\u2019s impact today: outsourcing the bottom 10% of your job, and where human creativity still wins<br \/><strong>38:30<\/strong> \u2013 Getting AI to work for YOU (not replace you): voice, tone, prompt engineering, and hands-on frameworks<br \/><strong>41:10<\/strong> \u2013 The coming \u201cslop detection\u201d skill \u2014 why authenticity is the next frontier in AI-driven content<br \/><strong>45:20<\/strong> \u2013 AI, data, and privacy: why you can\u2019t yet automate everything (and what\u2019s next for secure use cases)<br \/><strong>48:00<\/strong> \u2013 Revenue marketing in 2025: is anything working? SEO vs. GEO, the zero-click world, and email\u2019s collapse<br \/><strong>53:00<\/strong> \u2013 Channel mix reality: In-person events, brand touchpoints, and the fraction-of-a-second rule<br \/><strong>57:00<\/strong> \u2013 Widely held beliefs that are wrong: \u201cMore tech is better\u201d and the myth of martech as a solve-all<br \/><strong>59:30<\/strong> \u2013 Tech is just a tool, people and programs drive impact<br \/><strong>1:02:00<\/strong> \u2013 Where to find John and how to reach out for more GTM insights<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<p><strong>Guest Speaker Links (John Fernandez):<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>LinkedIn: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/johnfernandez\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/johnfernandez\/<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Datasite: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.datasite.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">https:\/\/www.datasite.com\/<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>Host Speaker Links (Sophie Buonassisi):<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>LinkedIn:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/sophiebuonassisi\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/sophiebuonassisi\/<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Newsletter:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/substack.com\/@sophiebuonassisi\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">https:\/\/substack.com\/@sophiebuonassisi<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<h3>Thanks to Our Sponsor \u2013 Pursuit<\/h3>\n<p>The best talent isn\u2019t actively job hunting. Pursuit helps companies hire elite go-to-market talent on a\u00a0<em data-stringify-type=\"italic\">non-retainer basis<\/em>. As a key GTMfund partner, they equip sales and marketing teams with top performers.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re hiring for sales or marketing roles, reach out to Pursuit at <a href=\"http:\/\/pursuitsalessolutions.com\/gtm\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">pursuitsalessolutions.com\/gtm<\/a> or message a GTMfund team member.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<p><strong>Where to find GTMnow (GTMfund\u2019s media brand):<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Website:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/gtmnow.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">https:\/\/gtmnow.com\/<\/a><\/li>\n<li>LinkedIn:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/company\/gtmnow\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/company\/gtmnow\/<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Twitter\/X:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/x.com\/GTMnow_\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">https:\/\/x.com\/GTMnow_<\/a><\/li>\n<li>YouTube:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@GTM_now\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\/@gtm_now<\/a><\/li>\n<li>The GTM Podcast (on all major directories):\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/gtmnow.com\/tag\/podcast\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">https:\/\/gtmnow.com\/tag\/podcast\/<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<p><b>The GTMnow Podcast:<\/b><b><br \/><\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">The GTMnow Podcast is a weekly show featuring the top 1% of GTM executives, VCs, and founders. Each episode gets beneath the surface to reveal the real go-to-market strategies, frameworks, and career moves that shape iconic B2B companies from Seed through Series B and beyond.<\/span><\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>GTM 156 Episode Transcript<\/h2>\n<p><strong>John Fernandez (00:00.398)<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Brand\u2019s gonna give you an extra fraction of a second before that person deletes your email. Headline\u2019s a bit of a cheat code, because it gets very, very close to revenue. The SEO in email or the areas that are decreasing, GEO is obviously coming very heavily. Well, it\u2019s because they have a very easy to understand number. As coming after jobs, it\u2019s not coming over the top part of your job, it\u2019s coming after the bottom part of your job. It\u2019s so easy to measure sales.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sophie Buonassisi (00:48.386)<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Before we dive in, a quick word on hiring. It\u2019s a weird market out there right now, but finding top go-to-market talent is still one of the biggest levers for growth. At GTM Fund, we\u2019ve made over 2,000 Canada intros and placed hundreds of eight players. One of our go-to recruiting partners is Pursuit. They specialize in sales and marketing talent, and they do it without a retainer. We work with them closely across many roles. If you\u2019re hiring, go to pursuitsalessolutions.com forward slash GTM, that\u2019ll be in the show notes, or paying someone from the GTM Fund team. We\u2019ll get you connected.<\/p>\n<p>This episode breaks down how to build a marketing organization that\u2019s accountable to pipeline and revenue. You\u2019ll learn how to align product<\/p>\n<p>content and campaign functions around a shared revenue goal and how to map marketing contributions across a full value chain. Currently SVP of Datasite and formerly a go-to-market leader at Glia, content-wise diligent, John has led teams through IPO\u2019s, acquisitions, and over a billion dollar in equity events. At Glia, he drove 71 % of pipeline and 60 % of new business revenue. John also shares how to operationalize measurements with his 4Watts framework, what\u2019s broken with attribution, why GO is replacing SEO, and how to use AI without losing signal or authenticity.<\/p>\n<p>He also shares some parallels between chess and go-to-market, like how the best players win by knowing when to break their rules. Sometimes the winning move is trading the queen, not protecting her. All right, let\u2019s get into it. John, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, Absolutely. We\u2019re going to deep dive on revenue marketing. So I have to ask, to get started, how do you even define revenue marketing? And how is it different than a traditional brand and demand gen functions?<\/p>\n<p>always get to get very, very theoretical at first. So you have revenue marketing, even if you didn\u2019t know it. But for me, there\u2019s a concept that\u2019s really, really helpful that we use a lot, especially with GLIA, was this concept of value chain. Every company has a value chain. So you think of it traditionally as your marketing team then goes on to sales, then goes on to CS, then goes on to product. And you\u2019re supported by a lot of functions. So think about<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (02:46.9)<\/p>\n<p>know, IT, HR, finance, legal, all sort of support the overall value chain. And that is sort of the overall construct of a company. Well, marketing has that as well. So, you know, marketing organization, traditionally you have your product marketing org, first and foremost, obviously get a product to market, messaging, positioning, all of those great pragmatic marketing framework stuff. You then have your content marketing team. You know, they\u2019re educating and build trust in creating that content. And then you have the revenue marketing team.<\/p>\n<p>which are the campaigns, channel owners, their job is to take that content marketing based off of product marketing to go out into the field and obviously find folks and turn into pipeline and obviously revenue for the business. then marketing, know, is traditionally supported by brand, corporate communications, marketing operations, and everything else that you need. And so, you when I was saying I\u2019m a revenue marketer is one is I come from a channel owner, I was a digital marketer to start and I have that bias.<\/p>\n<p>But now that I\u2019ve sort of grown and progressed in my career, for me, it\u2019s about, you know, what is the primary function and culture and rallying cry of that marketing team, knowing we have all of those things to do. You know, so for me, the marketing team, yes, you may be in product marketing or content marketing or brand and design and stuff like that, but like we all get together to create pipeline. And that\u2019s sort of like the thing I want to exude in the culture.<\/p>\n<p>you know, more so than everything else. And obviously, brain\u2019s really important. And know, Cropcoms is really important and product marketing is very important. But what is that kind of that rallying cry? And that\u2019s always, no one is better or different. It\u2019s just, that\u2019s the way I\u2019m wired and the way that I find is very, very strong. We all need to be revenue marketers to some extent. have every function isn\u2019t traditionally in revenue marketing, but that\u2019s sort of how I\u2019ve defined it and said,<\/p>\n<p>you know, whether it\u2019s ownership of revenue marketing or marketing in its entirety, that that\u2019s sort of the main focus for me as a marketer and the teams that I manage is, we\u2019re here to create pipeline and for the business. that can be very, that could be a very, very challenging statement to many orgs. And for other orgs, like, yeah, that\u2019s what we do all day, right? So it just depends on how you\u2019re structured and how you go about things. Yeah, that makes sense. I\u2019m sure you get it.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (05:10.2)<\/p>\n<p>quite a variety of reactions to that. How do you really permeate that culture around, we\u2019re all here to do the same thing, even if our database is different? It is a challenge. And there are some functions where it\u2019s a little bit more anathema. You always think of the Don Draper quote. I sell products, right? Don Draper was a marketer, but at the end of the day, he sells things.<\/p>\n<p>You know, for me, maybe it\u2019s part of my background, the first 10 years of my career were in B2C. You know, and that is, the phrase I always use is it\u2019s like picking up nickels in front of a steamroller. It\u2019s really, really tough. You\u2019re spending a thousand dollars to make a thousand and five. And it\u2019s, you know, very technically, we\u2019re like, you have to be very operationally strong and it really gets in this, we\u2019re here to make money. And I certainly saw when I first made the move into B2B in 2009, that was not the culture.<\/p>\n<p>And that was certainly not the culture of the marketing organization I was in. was certainly the culture of the sales organization I was in. There was always a story I liked telling. It was my second week in B2B at all. And so I owned, I my title was something like Senior Manager of Online Marketing. So I just like, I owned the website and digital channels. You know, I got all my data together. I remember seeing the whole, the marketing team come in and start presenting about like a trade show they did.<\/p>\n<p>talking something about MQLs and they walked out of the room and it was kind of silence. And then someone noticed me in the room and they were like, what do you do? And I started telling them about digital marketing and how they make money. And they actually started laughing at me because that was not their wiring of what a marketing organization was. Our marketing was very brand forward, very product marketing forward. Again, that\u2019s not better or worse, but doesn\u2019t really.<\/p>\n<p>doesn\u2019t resonate with a sales org as much as I\u2019m gonna give you money. And they were pretty skeptical about it and rightfully so because that was always kind of the bias and it\u2019s like, it\u2019s not either or it\u2019s both, right? And how do we take a great brand and how do we take great product marketing and how do we turn that to give you good pipeline is important. It\u2019s the thing I was saying about marketing is marketing is too many things today. No one person is good at all of them. If you say you are, you\u2019re just lying.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (07:30.708)<\/p>\n<p>And it\u2019s it\u2019s not, it\u2019s not physically possible. The word, like the word has almost ceased to mean something in the sense of there\u2019s so many, what type of marketing are you? What\u2019s function and marketing are you? What skills do you use? There\u2019s so many and just sort of saying it\u2019s one thing and you are one thing. Like knowing where you\u2019re strong is what\u2019s important. Knowing where your weak is what\u2019s important. Say like, I\u2019m going to do what I do really well. You don\u2019t want me creating content. You sure as heck don\u2019t want me creating graphics or vision. It\u2019s like.<\/p>\n<p>You want me out of that stuff. You don\u2019t want me in product marketing. Do I know what good looks like? Yes. I think that\u2019s really, really important to be a well-rounded marketers to know, well, except knowing how to produce sort of every single thing in the factory. That\u2019s just, that\u2019s beyond any human\u2019s capability right now. That\u2019s such an important note, especially as conversations go around more of a generalist approach where yes, you can be a generalist, but it\u2019s less about going deep.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s more about actually understanding what good looks like.<\/p>\n<p>And look, sometimes you need to be, right? I\u2019ve been a marketing team of one or two. And I\u2019ve been writing blog posts and doing everything I can to set up a trade show booth and stuff like that. We all have to pitch in where we can, but there\u2019s a difference between being able to do it at a functional, passable level and being great at it. Obviously, we should all aspire to greatness. We should all aspire to.<\/p>\n<p>you know, a really high level in everything we do. I think that that\u2019s, that\u2019s something I try to exude sort of everything I do. hmm. Tom, I love this conversation already because I myself, you\u2019re, speaking to that persona of, know, a singular marketer that is covering events to content and so forth. So super interesting. Have you been leveraging more data attribution data to permeate that culture that you were talking about? We\u2019re all here to drive revenue.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (09:32.898)<\/p>\n<p>Hey sales team, hey other teams, here\u2019s how we align around that. Here\u2019s the data behind. For example, I Chili Piper or a couple other companies too have run exercises just to test it where they kill all brand spend. And then they watch their conversion rates dip and lower and leverage that to really prove out the value of marketing.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (09:54.638)<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a lot to unpack there. So one is, like to think about a very, very fundamental thing is why are we measuring? And so I think a lot of people don\u2019t think about this that well, or don\u2019t have the time to or don\u2019t have the opportunity to. We should be measuring to understand there\u2019s a big, I call it kind of a four what\u2019s rubric, which is what\u2019s working, what\u2019s not, what\u2019s new, what\u2019s next.<\/p>\n<p>And you know, I think of that as that, that was a structure, for example, that I\u2019ve used with boards and said, I\u2019m going to show you one slide says here\u2019s stuff that\u2019s working. Cause I better have stuff that\u2019s working. Otherwise I\u2019m, you know, really not doing my job. I should have stuff stuff that\u2019s not working. If I don\u2019t have things that are failing in some way, shape or form, then that means I\u2019m not trying hard enough. I\u2019m not experimenting. I don\u2019t have that sort of culture of, you know, trying to figure out what works for us to, to.<\/p>\n<p>to the heart of your question. I should always have things that are new, right? And ideally a quarter from now or a month from now, I\u2019ve got those things in, you know, what\u2019s working and what\u2019s not. And then obviously what\u2019s next is I should ask some things I really want to get to, but don\u2019t have the ability to in the near term, right? And ideally those things sort of move up. And if you develop a really good discipline of that every quarter, that\u2019s a cheat code. Being able to go to a, manager, your executive team, your board and say,<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m going to do X, Y, Z. I expect it to produce A, B, C. I\u2019m going to tell you what happens regardless and tell you what I learned. And maybe the stuff that\u2019s not working, I tweak. And maybe it\u2019s just like, no, this is just a bad idea. I\u2019m just not going to do it anymore. If you can show, if you use that discipline, that really builds trust. But to get back to it at the end of the day, you should be measuring to understand what\u2019s working and what\u2019s not. Again, we are<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re giving a very, very, very, very simple structure in business. Company gives us money, whether it\u2019s our salary, whether it\u2019s the tech we have, whether it\u2019s the people we work with, whether it\u2019s the program spend, to produce a return. We should be doing as much measurement as possible to figure out how do we get the best return for this dollar, euro, pound currency it is. And think about it sort of ruthlessly from that perspective. Obviously,<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (12:19.138)<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a lot of other things of why we measure. Obviously, we don\u2019t just need to market our companies, we need to market ourselves and our functions internally. Hey, we\u2019re doing good things. We want to use numbers to do that. Numbers are why people care, right? They need to have, what\u2019s the measurable value of what you do? Obviously, is a revenue marketer, pipeline\u2019s bit of a cheat code, because it gets very, very close to revenue.<\/p>\n<p>Sales is easy, right? It\u2019s the reason why we always go crazy over, the sales guys run everything. Well, it\u2019s because they have a very easy to understand number. What they do in sales directly relates to revenue, directly relates to the growth of the company. It\u2019s so easy to measure sales, but it\u2019s very hard to manage from that perspective. Marketing\u2019s flipped. It\u2019s the hardest to measure. You can measure a billion things and still not have a very good answer.<\/p>\n<p>It then makes it sort of the easiest to manage. You everybody loves going up to a marketer and making, you know, polite suggestions as how they could be doing marketing better that like would never work in any other function, but we get those all the time in marketing. But it\u2019s for that sort of reason of like, it\u2019s not as, it\u2019s hard to get your head around sort of what matters, right? And so the biggest part of measurement is to figure out like, what\u2019s going to matter, right? Is it funnel health? it?<\/p>\n<p>that promoter score, know, the answer is it\u2019s all of it. You should be measuring as much as you can, but then figuring out what\u2019s important, what\u2019s a leading indicator, what\u2019s going to predict in the future, that\u2019s very often where the magic happens. think, you know, I think one of the worst things that\u2019s happened to marketers, you know, in the past decade or so has been the idea that the answer is so.<\/p>\n<p>Right? You know, the idea that, we\u2019re just going to give you, I mean, multi-touch attribution might be a rabbit hole I\u2019m falling into in this conversation, like, you know, multi-touch is really, really important, but it\u2019s really better at measuring effort than efficacy. And what I mean by that is, you know, multi-touch measures what you see. There\u2019s a really strong statement I made once. It was actually at a marketing attribution.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (14:36.533)<\/p>\n<p>company\u2019s event and I got on stage and I said the majority of you all should be fired for cause for fraud and you don\u2019t know it yet and The way I would always unpack it is I would say I bet you I know what your best performing piece of content is and I bet you you don\u2019t And it\u2019s this is our typical SAS party track, but and they would always go. What do you mean? It\u2019s like, oh, you don\u2019t you don\u2019t know my content<\/p>\n<p>And I would say, it\u2019s your MSA and statement of work. And they\u2019d go, and I\u2019d be like, you weren\u2019t interested in attribution. You were interested in marketing attribution. Right? So I think of my buyer journey and I think of all the content they touch. The MSA and SOW is actually important, but we\u2019re marketers and we\u2019re thinking about our stuff only. And we\u2019re not thinking about all the content they\u2019re seeing on the journey. And so, you know, that\u2019s just a<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a little simple example of how we need to think of the entirety of the buyer journey. Yes, we are responsible for, it could be up until MQL handoff, not to use that phrase too much. It could be at meeting handoff, right? You can be handing them off in various different ways. It could be a very, very PLG system where humans really don\u2019t get involved until much, much later in their journey. But at the end of the day, you need to look at the whole thing to make sense of it.<\/p>\n<p>And you need to understand what is that buyer? What are they thinking about at every stage in this process? They don\u2019t care about just the marketing part. They care about when the seller gets involved, they care about when the BDRs or SDRs or whatever you want to call that function gets involved. care about customer success. And so you have to have this wide view of what\u2019s everything that went into this buyer journey. Not just my emails, but the seller\u2019s emails.<\/p>\n<p>customer success as emails, you\u2019re looking at customer marketing, what\u2019s, what is the sum total of their experience that can include their QBR calls they have with executives, executive touch points they might have, you know, yes, we think about them when they happen at conferences, but do we think about them when they happen when our sellers are on the road or our execs are on the road? No. And you have to become very, you have to sort of like break down your own function and say, I\u2019m not thinking about this as a market.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (16:59.854)<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m thinking about this as a business person across, as a guru market person, which I feel like we seem to be getting towards, right? It\u2019s a whole CRO conversation, but like think of yourself as a mini CRO, right? Think of yourself as like, what are they seeing? What are they doing? What is working? What is adding value? At the end of the day, if I step back for a second, the other day you really want your buyers to do three things. One is why should I pick your category? Two is why within that category,<\/p>\n<p>Why should I pick you? And the third one, think the one that\u2019s killing everybody today is why should I pick you now versus waiting a year or two years or three years when you\u2019re going to be even cooler than you are today, right? I have to say, I stopped figuring out for example, right? And so at the end of the day, everything you\u2019re doing is trying to do that, right? Your marketing team, your sales team, you know, obviously once you\u2019re a customer, the conversation\u2019s a little bit different of how can we get you to get the most value out of this?<\/p>\n<p>How do we get that as quickly as possible? How does that lead to, you know, both the GRN and RR tracks of one, making sure you stay in business with us and get more of this, but then like, are the other things I can sell you? How else can I help build on the journey that we\u2019ve already established, right? At the end of the day, that\u2019s all that you\u2019re trying to answer. You need to measure everything. Now, yes, we are not responsible for sales tactics or trading, things like that.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s fine. We need to be aware of them. We understand what they are. And so you go back to like measurement. Well, the answer is you need to measure everything you can. I think the challenge from marketers today is they found that data is borderline infinite if you let it. Right. And it\u2019s really transforming as to what\u2019s the insight. I don\u2019t want data anymore. In fact, I think there\u2019s been a bit of a data backlash, I think rightfully so, because I think we\u2019re throwing a lot of, you know,<\/p>\n<p>I can throw more Tableau workbooks at anybody than anybody else who\u2019s listening to this podcast, but that doesn\u2019t help me do my job better. Being able to figure out what is business value? How do we set our, you know, with even OKR structure, how do we set our goals in a way that we\u2019re ideally doing the right things? Right? And so, know, is it about getting more meetings for our sellers and more pipeline? Absolutely. Is it getting more people into our database?<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (19:26.638)<\/p>\n<p>Probably this right is it is it finding more accounts in our in our TAM and better identifying our TAM, right? He\u2019s getting a better message to break through to certain personas. The answer is it\u2019s all of it. What\u2019s really important is that you have the data framework of understanding I know my ICP very well on a firmographic basis and I could do my cuts appropriately right whether they\u2019re industry cuts size cuts geographic cuts, whatever they whatever matters to your go-to-market regime<\/p>\n<p>And then who are the people that matter? Especially since buying has changed so dramatically. You 10 years ago, I used to buy alone as a director with no problems. I\u2019m now at the SVP stage of my life. It\u2019s harder for me to buy stuff as an SVP today than it was 10 years ago as a director, regardless of company size. And that\u2019s just because there\u2019s a plethora of technology that there\u2019s way too much, which is its own conversation.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a huge focus on what is the value for this? What is the human impact of this technology solution? What is the impact of the program spend or people spend? And so people have realized that, especially now we\u2019re not in that zero interest rate environment, we were for a long time. is, what is the value? What is the dollar return you\u2019re going to get? And so we have to think very broadly.<\/p>\n<p>about who is consuming our stuff. It\u2019s not just the end user. It may very well be go to their website, see their executive team. They may all be in that call. You might have a demo where your entire exec team is on the first demo and you\u2019re like, what\u2019s going on here? That\u2019s just how companies buy today. And that\u2019s going to evolve, you know, I think certainly with AI and the like, but it\u2019s definitely something you\u2019re seeing in the marketplace, regardless of who you are today.<\/p>\n<p>And it really has to inform, like your marketing has to understand that. And it\u2019s not just like, we just have a really good message to this one guy and he\u2019s going to buy it. Like there was a time that worked, but it hasn\u2019t been that way for a while. Interesting. Yeah. Much more alignment between the buying committee on the other side.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (21:44.75)<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, mean, also, also depends on mapping that out, right? I mean, it\u2019s, you know, why people talk a lot about ABM is you have to dive really deep into understanding that company, what makes a tick, right? Who\u2019s, who\u2019s playing, you know, you could have a sales cycle where you have 20 people involved. You know, good year, you if you have a sales team that does really good job of building out the contact roles in Salesforce or whatever this year, I\u2019m going to you know, you will see some sales that are like,<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019re not million dollar sales and they\u2019ll have 25 people. And it\u2019s like, you know, which one of these matter? Oh, you\u2019d sell it. So they all sort of, you know, pretty much any one of those can be doing it\u2019s like really, it\u2019s like, look at it. And as someone who\u2019s an executive, like I\u2019ve had marketing initiatives torpedoed by other functions that had nothing to do with marketing because they\u2019re competing for the same resources at the end of the day.<\/p>\n<p>Right. And so, you know, our sellers experience the same thing. And so you have to be really, really conscious of that and really understand that it\u2019s it\u2019s that depth. The deeper you can get into a problem, the more meaningful work you can get. think that\u2019s really one of the things I think good market leaders are struggling with in 2025 is it\u2019s very easy to be, you know, across 50 different projects, moving them all.<\/p>\n<p>You know, an intraday? That\u2019s not\u2026<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s not going to get it done. Yeah. That makes progress. That\u2019s great. But like, you need to really understand the problem deeply, really solve it. What\u2019s that unique value you can add and unlock it. That is really an approach that I think we\u2019re struggling with just with attention span. It\u2019s supposed to go with it and everything that\u2019s getting thrown at us. But really the person who can deep or deeply understand the problem is going to win. And that happens in sales.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (23:42.284)<\/p>\n<p>Right. The company that\u2019s going to win is going to be the one that, yes, being first helps having the best product helps. But the one that really most deeply understands the people and has influenced them the most and has the most poll, that\u2019s going to win. And everything else is is a bonus. But the deeper ones always win. And that\u2019s why there\u2019s a lot of value. Yes. Why, know, OK, maybe sellers aren\u2019t getting paid, but, you know, AI engineers are getting paid by trying people today. But like.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s why they get the big bucks and very often rightfully so. As marketers, we tend to forget that and not understand that. I think that that\u2019s having a lot of empathy and understanding for everybody\u2019s position is really, important, even if your position is different. Absolutely. That almost extends, mean, it does, to the entire organization of whatever company has the deepest understanding of a customer.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (24:38.382)<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s never not been the case, I feel. But it\u2019s, it\u2019s, you know, there maybe were a few cheat codes back in the day. You know, was harder to find competition. People didn\u2019t know or people prided on relationships. But, you know, it\u2019s really depth of understanding the problem that\u2019s going to Definitely. And John, if I just give a little bit of summary of your background in a way.<\/p>\n<p>You let GLIA through some incredible growth, know, through the series B, C, D to over a billion dollar valuation. And in that time achieve, you know, over 37X revenue growth, employee growth, customer growth, all the things. But what really fascinated me is that over 71 % of new business pipeline and 60 % of new business revenue came from revenue marketing. And those are really compelling numbers.<\/p>\n<p>that a lot of organizations would want to replicate. But of course, as you called out earlier, there\u2019s context to everything. So when and who would you say revenue marketing is a fit for?<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a tough question. I GLEO was an amazing, amazing experience. was a very, it\u2019s one, there\u2019s been a lot of folks that have been talking about, I\u2019ll go into career coaching for a second of like, you know, really one of the most important life skills I\u2019ve found has been picking companies while picking CEOs, while picking leasurers. You know, and something I realized about myself is,<\/p>\n<p>I am not a marketer who can sell ice cubes to penguins in Antarctica. I\u2019m going to sell ice cubes to people on the beach in Miami, or I think Phoenix was 107 degrees yesterday. like, you know, selling ice cubes there. For me, it\u2019s all about product market fit. There are a lot of companies that are selling, you know, aspirational products. And by the way, some of the best products in the world started off aspirational. I\u2019m someone who<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (26:50.19)<\/p>\n<p>I can\u2019t, I don\u2019t know how to do that. That\u2019s not a skill I have. I\u2019m very impressed by the people who have those skills. I don\u2019t have them. I\u2019m much more like, hi, this is an iPhone. It\u2019s really good. It works. What was neat about Glia was we were at that stage of the product as early as we were, which was very, very rare. It was kind of incredible of how, you know, was day one and I got a demo.<\/p>\n<p>2018 and you\u2019re talking about a company that was like, you know, single digit million dollars, you know, a couple dozen customers, but had a very real product that demoed incredibly well, that had a real need for a step back that provide, you know, we call digital customer service solutions to banks, credit unions, insurance companies. And so you think of you you log into your bank website, you know, what do you see?<\/p>\n<p>to talk to an agent or AI and get information in a very easy way. And obviously you could do that on a bunch of different channels, whether it\u2019s text, audio, video, or a combination of all three. And that\u2019s been a process that\u2019s been very miserable for lot of folks and very frustrating, in what\u2019s, know, when you\u2019re dealing with your bank, it\u2019s like, you\u2019re not doing that for fun. You\u2019re doing that for a reason, right? And that reason could be very, very serious, right? So it\u2019s a high pressure conversation.<\/p>\n<p>and you want to work, it was like, oh my God, this is a product that like really works. And what we were able to do was really figure out, product works. We have really deep understanding of the ideal customer profile. We can actually brute force this into a list. Like we know who, can find out who all the banks are. We can find out who all the credit unions are. It is a finite universe. And so we know who to go after.<\/p>\n<p>And now we\u2019re just gonna go after them systematically, Let\u2019s understand all of the roles, what do they do? And for me, it\u2019s about really understanding what is every potential touch point you have with that persona, right? So you think of like, you know, I\u2019ll think about it even more simply. We think of search engine marketing. It\u2019s what is that person type when they go into Google when they\u2019re thinking about this problem?<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (29:11.79)<\/p>\n<p>Right? Is it a category name? You hope it would be a brand name? Again, it on your industry and where you are. Like you may be in a spot where they\u2019re just typing in problems. Right? One of those keywords that becomes your keyword set that informs your content marketing strategy, informs your messaging strategy, which informs your search engine marketing strategy. And basically we were able to build this engine that said, we don\u2019t think they go digitally. We\u2019re to have our BDR team in their email box, LinkedIn box.<\/p>\n<p>voice mailbox as much as we can. We know what trade shows and events they go to. We\u2019re going to be at all of those. We know what partners they work with. We\u2019re going to develop a whole ecosystem around them. And we\u2019re just going to get in front of them every single time we have support. And we took it a few steps further in our regime, which was your sales process is really, really tough because it\u2019s very technical. You\u2019re talking about,<\/p>\n<p>with Ted.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (30:09.972)<\/p>\n<p>security very, very heavily because you\u2019re talking about banks. Your credit use is financial. That means everybody in the universe is trying to hack it. So there\u2019s a lot of implementation. There\u2019s a lot of legacy tech to integrate to. So we said like, sales, we\u2019re going to start you off at the meeting. We\u2019re not going to worry you about lead quality. We\u2019re not going to worry you. like, hey, here\u2019s the list of companies. You want to talk to these guys? Yep, we\u2019re good. We\u2019ve got our territory. Let\u2019s go. And so that became a really, really<\/p>\n<p>flywheel of great product. It makes it very, very easy, by the way, that you create that, you know, why category, why glial, why now? was very, very easy to ask that construct and very easy to explain it. And obviously very easy to achieve that growth. Not every industry is like that. Right now, at data site, we sell virtual data rooms. Marketing could never lead 40 % of pipeline if we wanted to.<\/p>\n<p>Like that\u2019s just not the regime. It\u2019s very heavy relationship based. It\u2019s, you know, that\u2019s just the model we\u2019re in. And so when it works, it\u2019s beautiful. It\u2019s really neat. But you might be in a situation where actually the majority of stuff is going to come from your sellers who have Rolodexes or maybe you\u2019re a big channel play or maybe you\u2019re, know, obviously, you know, a number like 60 is sort of 60 and 70 is sort of like a<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not even a stable number exactly in the sense of a lot of regimes are below that. A lot of regimes are above that, right? Your true PLG digital first guys, they\u2019re more like 90 % coming from your marketing organ, stuff like that. So it\u2019s kind of a little bit of an in-between to have a true enterprise five, six, seven figure regime where marketing plays a huge part. But<\/p>\n<p>that was the right solution in the go-to-market for us and what we did. At least that doesn\u2019t make it better or worse, but it meant that we needed a bit more of a revenue marketing focus where we are to get us there. Obviously, as you start to grow, well, now it becomes a lot more about, well, your customer marketing becomes actually a lot more important. Your ecosystem and partner marketing becomes important, especially as the ecosystem around your technologies becomes important.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (32:28.622)<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s never it\u2019s never one answer for very long. It\u2019ll very often change You also were the market forces, right? You know, what are the competitive landscapes? You know, who are you competing against now? That\u2019s something that can evolve significantly and so You know, think that all comes into What the right answer was but this we have this really neat, you know six-year trajectory of You know going from I think we\u2019re like just two dozen employees or something like that to like a few hundred<\/p>\n<p>all over the world and sort of seeing that and being on that trajectory is tough. I\u2019ve been really fortunate to have three runs of five years. People don\u2019t have those and around that time, by the way, like you probably should start going. Like as much as I want to stay at was like every idea I\u2019ve ever had GLIA has. Like I\u2019m not coming up with brand new ideas.<\/p>\n<p>you we\u2019ve got capable folks, you\u2019ve brought them in, there people that are getting corroded multiple times. It\u2019s like, you start to realize, you know, you\u2019re not, your role changes as well, right? And so, you know, a lot of it\u2019s like, hey, what\u2019s my next challenge? How do I actually get out of the way and make the people that I brought in, you know, get us home because they\u2019re really there. How do we help a new leader become successful and not have the old leader kind of in the way? And so there\u2019s a lot of stuff there, you know, that we to be sensitive about. so,<\/p>\n<p>It was a great run and you don\u2019t get a lot of things that work that well in this business. so being able to be a part of either one of those is pretty neat and a pretty cool honor. Absolutely. I\u2019ve heard you refer to it as jumping off the rocket ship. So you know when it\u2019s that inflection point to jump off and really dive into it. And it\u2019s tough and it\u2019s tough. It\u2019s really, really hard because the other rocket ship line is,<\/p>\n<p>You don\u2019t complain about what seat you have on a rocket ship. And so part of it\u2019s like, really just want to hang out. And, you know, and obviously like, especially just because the story is not completed, right? You know, you want to be part of it through an acquisition or, you know, whatever, you know, or IPO or whatever, you know, will happen in Glien\u2019s future. You kind of want to be there for that. Obviously there\u2019s some practical financial reasons to be there for that as well, which are important, but sometimes it\u2019s just not, you know, you\u2019re only going to have a finite amount of things.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (34:54.19)<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve been doing this for 26 years. Like, you know, I\u2019m starting to realize there\u2019s not, there\u2019s probably more of my career behind me than ahead of me at this point. And, you know, I think it\u2019s just, you know, when is the right time? And, you know, you see it in sports a lot too. It\u2019s like, see the people that leave a year too early versus a year too late. I feel like you want to be the guy who leaves a year too early, leaves them wanting a little bit more, but it\u2019s tough to do.<\/p>\n<p>in practice, was able to swing something that I think was sort of right by everybody and had a lot of help there. It was certainly a neat run. Yeah, tough to predict, but certainly better to be willing than leave late, as we can see in many sports players as a good analogy. Look, life was fantastic with a time machine. And we don\u2019t, mean, we just, if you have one, can lend me something great, but like,<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve never met anybody who\u2019s taken me up on that offer, you just have to make the best guess with the information you have at the time. Well, if you receive a shipment in the mail. Nice. Okay, great. So AI has been incredibly transformative. Where are you seeing the most impact, either in your marketing specifically within the organization or life, and the greater organization as a whole? Yeah, I mean, guess that\u2019s\u2026<\/p>\n<p>It wouldn\u2019t be a conversation in 2025 where we did not touch on this in some way shape or form a couple thoughts I have one is There\u2019s a market leader named Andy Joel\u2019s who\u2019s Really wonderful person really impactful. What are the CMO leaders? Pavilion and then a big fan of his and he\u2019s someone who even prior to AI was always telling people to outsource the bottom 10 % of your job<\/p>\n<p>And that was something he would tell people five years ago. And I always thought that was such a great mantra. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a coincidence that he\u2019s personally become very into AI for that reason. I think that mindset is really important, especially since there\u2019s this whole universe of AI is coming after jobs. Well, it\u2019s coming over the top part of your job. It\u2019s coming off the bottom part of your job.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (37:16.458)<\/p>\n<p>the less you\u2019re at the bottom part of your job, the better and happier you\u2019re going to be. And I\u2019ve been lucky that I\u2019ve been at both data site and GLIA that have both been very AI in the product. And a good example of that actually is that at GLIA, there\u2019s a lot of usage of chat bots and AI for banking use cases. Asking an AI bot, what\u2019s my balance? That\u2019s a perfectly wonderful use of AI. AI is not going to mess it up.<\/p>\n<p>And by the way, don\u2019t want to waste a trained human\u2019s time on that. so, know, somebody like, what is the right financial product for my family? That\u2019s a very deep, complicated question that you want humans with training and understanding and empathy to do. I think marketing is kind of the same way, right? Which is how, you know, you use a lot of the answers to the bottom 10 % of my job. Actually, I think now it\u2019s probably more than 10 % for myself and a lot of people.<\/p>\n<p>A lot of it is also that understanding of what is your skills as a human being? I\u2019ve always found on the writing perspective that I\u2019m better at editing than creating. Like a blank page really kills me. So you\u2019re using AI to get to, you\u2019ve already got an outline and you get a rough draft. It\u2019s not going to be great, but now I can get started, one, a little bit further along that funnel and get there.<\/p>\n<p>If you haven\u2019t connected your platform to your personal email copy from a voice and tone perspective, by the way, that\u2019s a miss for sure. Because I\u2019ve realized that I have a very, I think everybody\u2019s unique speaking sound. think certainly mine is unique in terms of, it\u2019s like a fingerprint for me. And so I want to sound like.<\/p>\n<p>me I don\u2019t want it to sound like AI I want it to<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (39:07.798)<\/p>\n<p>be a tool. I believe so much in human connection that it\u2019s not about like just, I\u2019m going to give you AI slop. Take me through that, John. What does that look like? like somebody wants to connect their personal email to copy. You can, so like you can actually connect it in the backend of like integrate my Gmail to it. What I\u2019ve gotten very good is like, you know, what are the prompts that I use? And so a lot of it\u2019ll be like, you know, okay, I want to do this. I have this, here\u2019s my personas.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s a bullet points of my thinking, but then I\u2019ll sort of tell you, can use chat GPD a lot. It\u2019s like, one is please make sure you\u2019re using my voice and tone from the emails you have. You know, there\u2019s always be, you know, I feel like this is the one that gets everyone these days is the use of dashes and semi-colons is almost the AI giveaway. My apologies to anybody who uses those two things regularly, but it\u2019s like.<\/p>\n<p>I feel if someone was tracking semicolon and dash usage, they would just see it exponentially going up. So we\u2019ll give it the structure and say, here\u2019s my outline. Here\u2019s what I kind of want to say.<\/p>\n<p>do it to me and let\u2019s iterate, right? And I don\u2019t see how that\u2019s any different than the blank email draft, where I just have something sort of like ping against, right? We always run drafts by other people when we\u2019re writing other things. Like this is just a way to do that that we\u2019ve always had. I think that\u2019s very, very different than, and I have people, I know people who do this, who are just like, can you respond to this emails? That I think is what bugs people more.<\/p>\n<p>For me, it\u2019s like, here\u2019s an outline, and this is the rough structures of it. Then by the way, you might get it back and go, no, actually, there\u2019s a few points I want to make. So it\u2019s being in that process of what find is, and the thing I find is faster than creating, that writer\u2019s block is a very real thing for me. And again, I\u2019m thinking really about writing in this, but I find that that\u2019s super helpful. There\u2019s also a lot of stuff for an AI where<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (41:18.894)<\/p>\n<p>you know, synthesize this for me. Right. And now there are people that do that as a lazy way so they don\u2019t have to do hurt. But as one who is like a like, are the key points here? Right. That\u2019s something that\u2019s often a good check of I read it myself. I think I know what I got of it. What do you what do you see when you look at this? Right. And so, you know, it\u2019s a very long way to way of saying.<\/p>\n<p>You know, I think the strongest case of AI is where it is doing work alongside you and not just doing work for you. It makes you better, meaningfully faster and meaningfully more productive, but it doesn\u2019t sort of compromise your own existence, right? You know, and I think what people are afraid of is like, this AI could replace me. Well, if you\u2019re just saying respond to this email, then your AI could replace. You know, it\u2019s like, you have to provide value to your AI. What I think people have started to\u2026<\/p>\n<p>What I think is the big challenge is an AI with almost no strategic input can now produce something that is like not bad.<\/p>\n<p>And I think that\u2019s the fallacy folks are getting into, which is they\u2019re having a not bad response. Right? And, you look, one of the things my kids love doing this is they will say,<\/p>\n<p>you know, give me a picture of what a green poodle would look like. This is genuinely something I\u2019ve thrown into it. Like, and they find it hysterically funny. Like, put the put the green poodle on a spaceship. Okay. It can do that. Like they can do some fun, crazy stuff. But how does it do real work for you? Right? You know, would you would you call that a real artistic work of, you know, I want to run a green poodle company and want a great logo.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (43:12.364)<\/p>\n<p>I wouldn\u2019t stop there. And you can see it. I think something is really, important. I think one of the most important skills for us is going to be that, I\u2019ll call it slop detection. You know, and I see it with my kids, you know, there\u2019s one set of videos that\u2019s coming up a lot of like, it\u2019s all AI. And it\u2019s like, you know, cats making stew and cats buying lettuce. It\u2019s just like, it\u2019s just, it\u2019s fun. And the kids love it. But<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve had some experience with AI, you\u2019ll start to see like, wait, the dogs had different types of hats on before, or they\u2019ll be eating and the food will just go from the side of their face and disappear. You could pick up those AI artifacts. And what\u2019s going to start happening is people are starting to, there are a of who can\u2019t develop those skills right now. And I think that\u2019s something that I\u2019m actually genuinely concerned about. And it\u2019s not a B2B marketing thing, but I\u2019m concerned about those things in like\u2026<\/p>\n<p>politics in bigger areas of the world is like, you and you see what\u2019s going viral on Facebook and you\u2019re like, that\u2019s clearly AI, what the heck? But I think a big detector we\u2019re gonna have is, was there human thought in here or not? And it\u2019s not going to be clear as day, it\u2019s not gonna just be an dash, it\u2019s gonna be this felt artificial. This tasted a bit off, I don\u2019t know, I can\u2019t put my finger on it, but it sounds wrong.<\/p>\n<p>and, and I, and I think very, very strongly, like, you know, it\u2019s all about authenticity, right? You know, just, you know, do you have a point of view? Do people feel it? Does it feel like it resonates? Does it feel like it comes from an actual human authenticity to me is sort of everything in marketing these days. And, AI could be a tool to actually getting deeper authenticity, but with care. And so,<\/p>\n<p>I think that that\u2019s an area where it\u2019s going to be really neat. I will admit the coolest things I want to do with AI.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (45:20.046)<\/p>\n<p>because I, well, I mean, think of it like, I\u2019d love to point it at like, our data. If I did that, I\u2019d get fired. Like, I mean, that\u2019s I mean, that\u2019s part of the reason why I like, like, I love it to crunch, like, I\u2019d love it to solve really hard problems. You really can\u2019t put most AI, I\u2019m like, yes, I know there\u2019s some AI companies that will have mine in the firewall, but like, I\u2019m still not super comfortable putting it against PII.<\/p>\n<p>and stuff like that. I do think what\u2019s gonna be interesting is how do the use cases that I would not touch today, like writing an email is fine, right? Helping write a social post is fine. But like, at my ICP. Look, if people are working on this today, which is, looking at my ICP, what are some look-alikes? What are you seeing in my ICP? Here\u2019s what I thought my personas was.<\/p>\n<p>Look at every single email on every single call and every single deal and tell me how right. Like some of those things can be really cool. And I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m in the minority or majority on this, but like, feel very importantly, I\u2019m not going to, and this is all the time I\u2019ve been with. I\u2019m not putting confidential, competitive, personal, if I will information into this. Like I\u2019m just not doing that with any AI system today.<\/p>\n<p>I think you\u2019d be a fool to do so. But it\u2019s gonna be able to answer some pretty neat questions. The question is how can we develop these things that are not going to, now they\u2019ve just ingested your whole company\u2019s data. And that\u2019s something I worry that people are doing that. mean, I just worry about writ large and I just don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>I do feel like there\u2019s a whole universe where the security is going to be, know, people dumped something into chat GPT or something else. And now in its database, it has like passwords and social security numbers and like, made such fear that that I would never those things. Cause yeah, I\u2019d love to train it at, you\u2019re trying to solve some very deep problems. I don\u2019t think they\u2019re there yet from,<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (47:40.366)<\/p>\n<p>from a security and usability perspective, so I never would. But there\u2019s probably gonna be a time where I will. And that\u2019s the stuff that I would love to, you know, look at every single lead that I\u2019ve got, Predictive scoring, right? So there\u2019s a lot of these AI use cases that are existing today, a lot of companies being built around it that are quite neat. But I think like, I don\u2019t want everything to be a you have to buy a $100,000 solution to do it, because that\u2019s not scalable either for.<\/p>\n<p>You know, one question I think they need to stuff for the things where you bounce around and ask a bunch of things. So I think AI is not there yet, but it\u2019s going to be getting there really, really quickly. And you think of data analysis and data insights as more and more important, like crown family jewels stuff gets into these systems. It\u2019s going to start giving some, some interesting things that by the way, like can be wrong. AI will still make stuff up. You know, go back to chess for a second.<\/p>\n<p>If you try to play a game of chess against it, it will cheat. It will make you legal moves. It will invent a piece on a square that was not there before. There\u2019s some actors from chess play, some chess content creators who\u2019ve done some really neat work on it. like, it will go do crazy things. And so you have to really have a trust but verify approach with it. But it\u2019s really interesting that these\u2026<\/p>\n<p>These things are starting to be able to do meaningfully work and be meaningfully helpful for us. And really all you can do is just you have to be fluid in it because this is going to be the language of folks over the next 25 years. End of story. People are not wrong when they say that. I think the universe is not going to go the way the majority of people think it will. That\u2019s a cop out because I have no idea which way it will actually go. But it often will go when I\u2019m expected in surprising ways.<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, absolutely. A raise we can\u2019t even imagine now. And John, this has been fantastic. I\u2019ve got last two questions, always the same. First, what is working right now in revenue marketing?<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (49:48.146)<\/p>\n<p>So, there\u2019s a few answers to that. One is like, I think everything is worse. I think it is true that some things are working more well. I think some things are working less well. There are two really big shifts that I think are happening that I think are bugging folks. One is this whole move from SEO<\/p>\n<p>you know, to GEO a lot of the sort of zero click results, right? And someone who\u2019s launched a search engine, I understand why search engines want you to not leave the search engine and stay within their universe. the whole Google has changed fundamentally. And that is a big part, if not the majority of a lot of businesses out there. And so that has been a catastrophic<\/p>\n<p>impact to some folks has been a great opportunity to others. And it\u2019s sort of like, I would say, I will say unfairly in terms of who gets, you know, what there because I think some of it\u2019s like, it\u2019s just hard to predict. The Gen. AI engines need to see you. You need to think of the Gen. AI engines the way as an old school search engine marketer from 20 years ago, when we thought about, you know, Google and Yahoo and Bing and Ask Jeeves and all those other ones.<\/p>\n<p>that we\u2019re out there, it\u2019s kind of the same way with the AI engines, right? Some AI engines are looking very heavily at Wikipedia. Some AI engines are looking very heavily at Reddit. Some AI engines are looking very heavily at what they\u2019re indexing. And so there\u2019s going to be a huge, there is a huge way in terms of findability for your company, for your brand, whatever you do on a daily basis to become visible is changing. User behavior is changing.<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019re not going to Google and typing in all of their questions anymore. They\u2019re doing it in chat GPT now. Now, I would say it\u2019s a little too early to call old school SEO dead. That behavior has been very ingrained for more than a generation. It\u2019s going to be there, but you\u2019ve got to now worry about this whole other thing too. And so I think the companies that have done well have made a point of how do we get ahead of this? Now that we get visibility to it, it\u2019s a black box to a lot of people right now in GM.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (52:07.822)<\/p>\n<p>I know there\u2019s some very interesting companies that are trying to start solving that, but it\u2019s gonna be a very interesting cat and mouse game, right? You we\u2019re gonna wanna start effectively gaming the Gen.AI engines, and the Gen.AI engines are not gonna wanna let us game them. It\u2019s the whole same thing with Google, just this is a different one, and this is a much more complex engine. You know, maybe a little less predictable, so it\u2019s gonna be really, really interesting. The second, I think, AI impacts this one too, is that emails suffer.<\/p>\n<p>Email suffering really in two different dimensions. I think people need to understand that these two things are very, very different, very real, but they may be impacting the same metrics. One is it costs $0 to attack somebody via email. And after $0, like $0.00001 cents. It costs nothing. And what\u2019s happened is that email has been weaponized and I\u2019m sure you get the fake<\/p>\n<p>PayPal, Geek Squad invoices all the time. We get the phishing attempts. think of like, and the reality is they\u2019re probably like, you your email provider probably blocks 99.999 % of them and still like a bunch get through. And what\u2019s happening is especially in the thing of financial services, those companies are getting phished and attacked all the time. You know, we have customers, have this real, this is actually one of our biggest challenges that GLIA was, even for our customers, they would just default blacklist everybody.<\/p>\n<p>They were so targeted by folks in email that they were like, we\u2019re only whitelisting our customers and our approved vendors. You are the only people that can email us. Everything else goes into, you know, some bit. And so that\u2019s one thing that\u2019s really going on in email that I think it\u2019s embarrassing. We haven\u2019t figured out how solve it. I think it\u2019s a sort of a shame and a failure of both tech and<\/p>\n<p>governments to protect people in email. And I think it\u2019s genuinely polluting the channel. I we\u2019re seeing it too with phones, right? I mean, how likely spam calls do you get on your phone nowadays? And so one that has hurt email. The other is like, look, there\u2019s a lot of AI slop hitting your email boxes. The volume of emails is increasing. So it is much harder to stand out, right?<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (54:35.778)<\/p>\n<p>You know, I still look at two principles. One is you need to be everywhere where your prospect is. So, you know, how are you in their email, voicemail, LinkedIn, at their physical events, talking to the thought leaders, you look up to, such a great phrase we used at GLIA, was a lot of people when we first rebranded to GLIA would say, what is a Gila? They wouldn\u2019t pronounce it right. And we wanted to take people\u2019s minds, have to go from what is a Gila to, yeah, I know those guys.<\/p>\n<p>And by the way, that gets your emails open more. That gets people responding to your BDRs. That gets people coming up to your booth. They see you every, yeah, yeah, okay. I know that name. Right? It\u2019s why the phishing emails come from like names you recognize and brands you recognize. Right? It like, you know, it\u2019s, you know, going back to our very early part, like it\u2019s why brand is really important. Brand\u2019s going to give you an extra fraction of a second before that person deletes your email.<\/p>\n<p>and they may choose to read it for that reason. Right? And so, you know, one is you got to make sure, you know, give every opportunity for them just to raise their hands and be there. The second is like, you got to have that right message at the right time. You have to make sure when they do open that email, which by the way is going to happen less and less, when they do that search term, that\u2019s going to happen less and less, that they see you and they\u2019re compelled to click.<\/p>\n<p>You know, and a lot of it goes out, know, nobody cares what I do, but if I can help make their job more successful, I\u2019ve got a friend for life. That\u2019s something I\u2019ve always believed very strongly, you know, regardless of what I\u2019ve done. So like the answer is everything is working. If you\u2019re doing it right, the efficacy of it is changing. And certainly SEO and email are the areas that are decreasing. GEO is obviously, you know, coming very heavily. We\u2019re talking obviously there\u2019s a big, you know, and<\/p>\n<p>you and I have met at these types of things, in-person events, right? You can\u2019t replicate that. Will we see, there seems to be a track towards more of that. Will T &amp;E budgets support it? I think that\u2019s a little bit TBD, but where those events are and where those people in your personas are gonna be there, you wanna be there. Regardless of, it can always be more better, cheaper, faster. That\u2019s something I\u2019ve realized. The question is just how am I making that an ROI positive channel?<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (57:03.406)<\/p>\n<p>and getting the most out of it, what can I do to get better every single day? And that other stuff actually becomes just noise if you adopt. That\u2019s great advice. What if we flip that on its head a little bit? What\u2019s one widely held belief that revenue leaders hold that you believe is bullshit or no longer serving us?<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (57:27.764)<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m very anti-techno. I think the belief that more tech is better.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t, I think that very rough cut is not true. A few things on that, Look, tech is a tool. It is good to have as many tools as possible. Yes, more tools make us better. AI is a tool, a very complex tool, but like at the end of the day, we sell to humans. Now, I mean, who knows? Who the heck knows where we\u2019re going?<\/p>\n<p>But we sell to humans, we sell to people. And you think of like, why do I have an iPhone here and not a BlackBerry? I remember like that was the moment where I felt I made it in my career was when I had my BlackBerry. But why? Because BlackBerry was thinking I have the CEO. Steve Jobs was like that human is a person. And he wants to have pictures of his kids and\u2026<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (59:00.142)<\/p>\n<p>it may become our most powerful tool. It\u2019s certainly our most complex tool, but it\u2019s just a tool. But you see this like, anytime you say something is better than something, to me, you\u2019re a clown. Or you\u2019re just being provocative, or maybe else. Right? know, it\u2019s like, know, something I\u2019ve learned in the 26 years of doing this is like, personas are different, industries are very different, humans will still always be humans. Now we may start valuing things differently, but anytime I see like, oh, you know, you\u2019ve got\u2026<\/p>\n<p>PLG is better than enterprise.<\/p>\n<p>for your company, that may be true, but you should be considering it. You know, it\u2019s, it\u2019s just this whole, what people have yet to realize. And it\u2019s kind of frustrating because we\u2019re on like the 20th iteration of this is in every year for the past two decades, there\u2019s been something new that you have to do. And there\u2019s always a crowd that says, is going to stop doing everything else. By the way, email was one of those once upon a time.<\/p>\n<p>Marketing automation was one of those once upon a time. ABM platforms was that once upon a time. Now the answer is just have to do all of it. Social media is gonna be everything. No, we just add social to what we did before. And maybe some things may be deprecated, but actually very, very few things are. There aren\u2019t that people who are thrilled with a lot of their tech stack right now. And it\u2019s a huge tax to have one of everything. And most companies can\u2019t afford to do that. It\u2019s probably just not a great use of.<\/p>\n<p>Again, I go back to ROI positive marketing. It\u2019s a great way to kill your ROI if you\u2019re spending a ton of money on tech. You\u2019ll see a ton of people to implement that tech and manage that tech and get the most out of it. And so I really think there\u2019s a tech crisis for tech market leaders today. And I don\u2019t know how it\u2019s going to shake out. You know, is the tech stack we have just going to keep limping along the way it has for<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (01:00:56.782)<\/p>\n<p>two decades, maybe, but maybe AI is going to be the company that solves AI. And obviously some of them are legacy players in the space, but if the companies that sort of solve AI, they sort of reformat what the tech stack looks like for folks moving forward. And I think in the interim, it\u2019s like, put the tech where you need it, where it adds a ton of value. But apart from that, like humans are going to differentiate you. Doing more programs is going to differentiate you.<\/p>\n<p>focus there and we\u2019ll see whether I\u2019m right or wrong on that one. I think it\u2019s a common theme that we hear too in general is at the end of the day, tech is a tool. So it really is about the people, the programs that you\u2019re pushing in a way your go to market optionality has increased immensely. So we\u2019ve added layers and the evolution, there\u2019s so many different paths now. And so it almost makes, I mean, our, you know, our thesis, but<\/p>\n<p>that thesis around go-to-market being your moat more impactful because suddenly there\u2019s all these different paths that you can take or different, you know, pawns that you can move on the test table. Yeah, and by all means, the solution to bad tech isn\u2019t no tech, it\u2019s good tech. And I just think there\u2019s a lot of bad tech out there and I think there\u2019s just a lot of, I think the ecosystem has not done folks favors and part of it was look, it was the environment, right? It was\u2026<\/p>\n<p>You know, marketers were getting huge budgets and spending like crazy and like that was never healthy when it\u2019s there. But, you know, what is the best? Again, it goes very simple. What is the best use for this dollar? Tech\u2019s got to produce a heck of a return to make it beat great people and great programs. And so if you\u2019re in one of those worlds where it\u2019s like that, that\u2019s<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s just going to be the reality for a Absolutely. And John, this has been absolutely fantastic. Appreciate all your insights. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch? John Fernandez. I am a John Fernandez. I\u2019m not the John Fernandez. There are other John Fernandez\u2019s, but I\u2019m on LinkedIn. I\u2019m Jay Fernandez on Twitter. I\u2019m the guy with the rocket ship in front of his name on LinkedIn. I have found that that is actually helpful.<\/p>\n<p>Speaker 2 (01:03:18.594)<\/p>\n<p>You will know who\u2019s a robot if you have an emoji in front of your name because they will put the robot the emoji into their emails to you so you can know who\u2019s bonding you versus who sent you manual. But John Fernandez obviously been at data cycle. He could definitely hold a bunch of other places. Chess as well was probably pretty easy to find with the John Fernandez rubric. Brilliant. We\u2019ll drop it in the show notes and the rocket ship suitable with your experience building and growing rocket ships.<\/p>\n<p>Thank you for your time, John. Thank Sophie, thank you so much for having me. Our pleasure. Thank you. Have a great rest of the day.<\/p>\n<p>The post <a href=\"https:\/\/gtmnow.com\/gtm-156-revenue-marketing-strategy-2025-john-fernandez\/\">GTM 156: Revenue Marketing Unpacked: GTM Lessons, AI, and What\u2019s Really Broken in Attribution | John Fernandez<\/a> appeared first on <a href=\"https:\/\/gtmnow.com\">GTMnow<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>The GTM Podcast is available on any major directory, including: Apple Podcasts Spotify YouTube John Fernandez is SVP at Datasite, with a track record as GTM leader at Glia, ContentWise, and Diligent, having scaled teams through IPOs, acquisitions, and $1.4B in equity events. At Glia, John pioneered revenue marketing\u2019s impact, driving 71% of pipeline and [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":287,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[15],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1064"}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1064"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1064\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1065,"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1064\/revisions\/1065"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/287"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1064"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1064"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/gogetmuscle.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1064"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}